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Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.11.15 10:16:00 - [1] Originally by: DarkMatter And yes, the healthcare system is messed up, but it needs to be more capatalistic, with more freedoms of choice for the American people. It's a hybrid system right now that favors monopolistic pharmecutical companies. However, the last thing we need in the USA is more taxes to turn the system into a Socialist one, a highly liberal viewpoint that I will not stand for, or ever vote for. NO! Do you even understand what you're saying? If you want a more capitalist medical system, then you give more power to the pharmaceutical companies because medicine would be run even more like a business. You don't want it as more of a socialist system because you are at a comfortable level of income, but what about that bottom lot who make up America's manual labour? I can tell you now that if you worked in a job where there was a high risk of bodily harm to yourself (I'm assuming that at 100k you don't), you wouldn't be so keen to shuffle the poor out of hospitals. In the UK we may have waiting lists for serious illnesses, but I know that I won't ever have to make some kind of incredibly grotesque choice such as which finger do you want to keep? _
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:36:00 - [2] Originally by: DarkMatter I know full well how nasty insurance companies are. My brother needed a 300k surgery to save his life, took a fight and a trip 1500 miles away to get the job done, still only took a week to get all that done. And it dosn't bother you at all that there are a huge amount of people who would not be able to do this at all, and would leave families without fathers, because they didn't have the capability to pay for the care. Do you think that someone who earns half as much as you has half the right to life? _
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.11.15 12:04:00 - [3] Originally by: DarkMatter Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: DarkMatter No, everyone deserves the right to live, no matter ho much they make. But they should not have the mindset that because I make more money than them, they have the right to take it from me and help themselves with it, because they are not as well off... Okay your first statement contradicts your second statement. Either poor people have a right to be helped or not. I think I understand your mentality. You feel it is our obligation to help people. But you don't want people to FEEL like it is their RIGHT to be helped, you want them to be GRATEFUL when they get help, not sit there EXPECTING it. What we're talking about here is public health. It has no place for gratitude and "deserve" and "expect." It has to be colorblind and the same for all people. So if some hippy trash-talking piece of crap who thinkts its his RIGHT to receive healthcare walks into an emergency room, he should still receive care, paid for by the system that we all pay into. Because the law cannot make distinctions like that. It cannot say "you're a hippy piece of schit who never worked a day in your life so you go die." It has to treat everybody the same. As long as that hippy piece of crap is paying into a health insurance plan, and not getting it for free by stealing from my earnings, I'm fine with that... So what you want is a system where everyone pays for healthcare and everyone gets healthcare? This is ridiculous. _
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.11.15 12:15:00 - [4] Edited by: Neon Genesis on 15/11/2007 12:15:43 And in conclusion, success in the great nation of America apparently gives you a complete disinterest in important social/political issues that don't relate to you immediately. _
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.11.15 15:26:00 - [5] Originally by: DarkMatter Steal from the rich & middle class to give to the idiots and line the politicians pockets on the way... Yeah, great I would say I belong to the middle class, and this is an attitude I try and work against constantly. And by this I mean the view that nasty things shouldn't happen to people with confortable lives and that the lower classes have always and will always have to take one for the team. By the way Cipher7 is winning this discussion by miles. _
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.11.15 15:39:00 - [6] Edited by: Neon Genesis on 15/11/2007 15:40:32 Originally by: DarkMatter Edited by: DarkMatter on 15/11/2007 15:33:44 Quote: By the way Cipher7 is winning this discussion by miles. How so? How can he win? He can't change my opinion about socialized medicine... Some people in this country want it, some don't... The only winning or losing will occur when the politician who gets in office can make it happen one way or the other... And chances are, whatever president is in, a congress will be there to oppose them, so nothing will happen, as usual Because he continually brings rational ideas to the table against your tendency to repeat a 'MY DOLLARS' agument in most of your posts. What it comes down to is should health care be for everyone, or polarised as very good healthcare for the few and substandard for many? _
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.11.16 22:56:00 - [7] Edited by: Neon Genesis on 16/11/2007 22:56:23 Originally by: DarkMatter When it starts to dictate how I'm supposed to live my life, it's all gone wrong... You already pay tax for all the other nationalised services that you enjoy. Your view of healthcare is born from your comfortable lifestyle, and you think you can disregard the wellbeing of the sections of your own country's population who are lower income. It's a narrow minded view and it's not a question of Liberals versus Conservatives in this case. It's failure to take into account anyone but yourself. Also, AMERICA. _
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.11.16 23:48:00 - [8] Edited by: Neon Genesis on 16/11/2007 23:49:33 Originally by: Rialtor Originally by: Neon Genesis Edited by: Neon Genesis on 16/11/2007 22:56:23 Originally by: DarkMatter When it starts to dictate how I'm supposed to live my life, it's all gone wrong... You already pay tax for all the other nationalised services that you enjoy. Your view of healthcare is born from your comfortable lifestyle, and you think you can disregard the wellbeing of the sections of your own country's population who are lower income. It's a narrow minded view and it's not a question of Liberals versus Conservatives in this case. It's failure to take into account anyone but yourself. Also, AMERICA. Sigh, Sigh, have you ever thought that your views are from where you are from? Isn't that by the same token, narrowminded-ness. You seem to think nationalized Healthcare is the only solution to the problem. A truer free market HC system can and would provide cheaper costs for each individuals. Charity and/or other social state sponsored institutions could take care of the lower classes. That's a far far cry from nationalized healthcare on a federal level. Do you think whatever form of HC you have can be spread throughout all of Europe successfully? probably not, because different countries/people have different mentalities as to what is fair and what is not. I'm from the UK incase you're wondering. I accept that my views are born of where I come from yes, but I also think that the view that not everyone deserves adequate health care is plainly the wrong view. Why do two human beings who have different incomes deserve different healthcare any more than they would expect different treatment from the police? Furthermore, I feel the concept of healthcare by insurance is wrong. A person with zero income also deserves the same healthcare as me. To get back onto the film, Moore is a director who selectively presents the truth in order to further his own arguments. However, pick the film apart and take individual examples out of it and there is some truth to it, if not the whole picture. The idea that anyone at all could slip through the *****s of medical care is appauling to me. _
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.11.17 00:30:00 - [9] Edited by: Neon Genesis on 17/11/2007 00:30:01 Originally by: Rialtor For the very same reason some people have personal transportation and some people don't. Personally I'd rather have a car than Healthcare, it's more prevalent in daily lives. Healthcare is an 'oh crap' sort of thing. So where's your program to insure that everyone owns a car? I think it's everyone's entitled to own a car. This is unbelievably stupid. You value ease of travel over your own life? A car is more important in daily life than adequate healthcare? _

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